[mairegra]

Originally Posted by dr461

I don't understand why you keep trashing medication that has been invaluable for so many people. You go on about "poisons," and so many people benefit from this alleged poison, that some side effects are clearly outweighed by lifesaving and lifestyle saving benefits. Perhaps you have personal issues with meds, but stop trying to influence others not to take it--that is irresponsible, and contrary to accepted medical practice. You are not a doctor, so don't ever tell people not to take meds prescribed for them. Aside from you opening up yourself to personal liability, you are being needlessly contrary and negative.

By the way, Jeff, I LOVE your post. Very down to earth, and not preachy, but constructive and positive regarding a variety of treatments. You are clearly committed to following doctors' advice, and using common sense and relaxation techniques to make your life less stressful--bravo for that! I guess I fall into the "hairy guy-6'1 and about 190-200 pounds" as well, so am empathetic to your saga..lolol. Your post was funny and informative--thanks for that!!!

I am not "trashing medication". They are poison and have horrendous short and long term side effects.I take meds and have for 30 years, if I could take those 30 years I would never have started meds. I have just gone back to work after 6 months disability and have worked with several doctors and done a lot of research. I am not trying to influence people not to take it just that there are alternatives. These medications keep you sick and dependent so that you need more and that is more money in the coffers of big pharma. They do cure anything only mask the symptoms. I fully support anybody who chooses to go that route but there is a huge downside. I just try to suggest being fully evaluated and not just accepting the prescription so readily handed out.If people think they are taking these meds and being cured they are under a huge misconception. Helped, maybe, feeling better, maybe, able to enjoy life. maybe cured, not. All these benefits are great in the short term but my concern is for the long term.

[dr461]

Originally Posted by mairegra

I am not "trashing medication". They are poison and have horrendous short and long term side effects.I take meds and have for 30 years, if I could take those 30 years I would never have started meds. I have just gone back to work after 6 months disability and have worked with several doctors and done a lot of research. I am not trying to influence people not to take it just that there are alternatives. These medications keep you sick and dependent so that you need more and that is more money in the coffers of big pharma. They do cure anything only mask the symptoms. I fully support anybody who chooses to go that route but there is a huge downside. I just try to suggest being fully evaluated and not just accepting the prescription so readily handed out.If people think they are taking these meds and being cured they are under a huge misconception. Helped, maybe, feeling better, maybe, able to enjoy life. maybe cured, not. All these benefits are great in the short term but my concern is for the long term.

This is dangerous irresponsible NONSENSE. Please get a hold of yourself and stop preaching this to people who obviously have a need for medication. If you don't stop this irresponsible attitude, you will come off like a crackpot, and someone who gives inaccurate and irresponsible advice that can be constituted as dangerous. I, for one, will ignore any nonsense post condemning medications categorically as poison. You're exaggerating the negatives, and are not stating a single positive. I am surprised that no one has challenged some of the irresponsible statements you make here--if you were a doctor, you'd be guilty of malpractice.

[Jeff]

@dr461 - Thanks! Very nice of you to say. I try not to preach, but I'm betting I still come off that way somtimes. And I know that sometimes I sound like a broken record, but I do what I can to approach things in a pragmatic way.

@mairegra - Going under the knife would be less invasive and dangerous than trying a medication that's been FDA approved and helps millions of people? I don't mean to diminish your personal experience with SSRIs, which as I understand it wasn't good, and success rates and adverse events rates for ablation are often reported as being favorable, it's still a procedure where permanent electrical damage is being done to the heart. That writing is in pen, not pencil. No eraser if it doesn't go well. Where with the meds, if they don't work, or you have an adverse reaction, you simply stop taking them, and you're back to where you were before.

I would also be cautious at suggesting treatment based on a patient's description of a symptom. Quivering of ventricles means v-fib, but if you read his post, he has nothing remotely similar to Vfib; he's just relating the sensation, which yeah, could be described as quivering. Even though it's a burst of PAT or PSVT.

So I'm not sure I'd jump right into ablation, when options that are far less dangerous and far less costly are right there at the ready.

That seems reasonable, doesn't it?

[Jeff]

Heh. Just read page two of this thread - I want to make sure we don't scare off Bigmoo with the ancillary discussion of conspiracies and such.

It's true - some medications can be addictive. Xanax is one of them. It can make you fat, too.

Some medications aren't addictive at all. I don't know if SSRI's are, but I know that I'm not addicted to them. I've easily weaned myself off of them, I've reduced my dosage to levels that aren't even considered therapeutic (though I think it is), I've been off of it for months, started up again when it felt like I needed some help. It's a tool in my toolbox for living a happy life.

But I worry that blanket statements about entire industries aren't productive in this setting.

So. We know that there are people here in favor of trying medications and people not in favor. Let's agree to disagree, and leave it at that. If you're against, suggest non-med therapies without tearing down therapies that involve an Rx, and those who are in favor of Rx's will do the same.

Frankly, I'm in favor of whatever works safely and efficaciously and is the easiest, whatever the therapy may be.

[dr461]

Originally Posted by Jeff

Heh. Just read page two of this thread - I want to make sure we don't scare off Bigmoo with the ancillary discussion of conspiracies and such.

It's true - some medications can be addictive. Xanax is one of them. It can make you fat, too.

Some medications aren't addictive at all. I don't know if SSRI's are, but I know that I'm not addicted to them. I've easily weaned myself off of them, I've reduced my dosage to levels that aren't even considered therapeutic (though I think it is), I've been off of it for months, started up again when it felt like I needed some help. It's a tool in my toolbox for living a happy life.

But I worry that blanket statements about entire industries aren't productive in this setting.

So. We know that there are people here in favor of trying medications and people not in favor. Let's agree to disagree, and leave it at that. If you're against, suggest non-med therapies without tearing down therapies that involve an Rx, and those who are in favor of Rx's will do the same.

Frankly, I'm in favor of whatever works safely and efficaciously and is the easiest, whatever the therapy may be.

Agree completely with everything you say, Jeff. I was only pointing out that there is NO evil conspiracy in drug companies to addict people, or to destroy them with poisons. In fact, they make more money when their drugs work well, and help to heal people--that creates a strong buying environment.

Also concur on the "whatever works" theory. Holistic healing in combination with traditional medicine is very wise, and sensible. However, I was taking issue with irresponsible statements telling people to disregard doctor's prescriptions. For some newbies, they may be so scared by the PVCs that they'd actually follow that as if it were sensible advice, causing even more problems. As Jeff said, FOLLOW YOUR DOCTOR'S ADVICE. Also, if your cardiologist says that you are ok, you are.

[mairegra]

Originally Posted by Jeff

@dr461 - Thanks! Very nice of you to say. I try not to preach, but I'm betting I still come off that way somtimes. And I know that sometimes I sound like a broken record, but I do what I can to approach things in a pragmatic way.

@mairegra - Going under the knife would be less invasive and dangerous than trying a medication that's been FDA approved and helps millions of people? I don't mean to diminish your personal experience with SSRIs, which as I understand it wasn't good, and success rates and adverse events rates for ablation are often reported as being favorable, it's still a procedure where permanent electrical damage is being done to the heart. That writing is in pen, not pencil. No eraser if it doesn't go well. Where with the meds, if they don't work, or you have an adverse reaction, you simply stop taking them, and you're back to where you were before.

I would also be cautious at suggesting treatment based on a patient's description of a symptom. Quivering of ventricles means v-fib, but if you read his post, he has nothing remotely similar to Vfib; he's just relating the sensation, which yeah, could be described as quivering. Even though it's a burst of PAT or PSVT.

So I'm not sure I'd jump right into ablation, when options that are far less dangerous and far less costly are right there at the ready.


That seems reasonable, doesn't it?

I never mentioned or suggested v fib and believe me I know what that is. as you know there is no "knife" involved in ablation and in a young or even older healthy person can be a complete cure unlike medications which like it or not do nothing to cure the problem and have serious long term consequences. They may mask the symptoms and make you feel better which is great. There are as you are aware arythmias such as AVNRT, which is characterized by quivering, which are caused by an overgrowth of a fiber which continues to grow as we age. This is highly ablatable and is a cure.. If you had a broken arm would you have surgery to repair it or would you take ever increasing doses of pain killers to make it feel better.

[dr461]

I never mentioned or suggested v fib and believe me I know what that is. as you know there is no "knife" involved in ablation and in a young or even older healthy person can be a complete cure unlike medications which like it or not do nothing to cure the problem and have serious long term consequences.

You mentioned "serious arrhythmias" and why should one take dangerous medications as opposed to an ablation. Remember, anyone reading this, an ablation is a surgical procedure. Which one would you rather have? Try meds to control a less profound arrhythmia, or surgery? Sounds like a simple choice to be made in concert with a DOCTOR.

[Jeff]

@mairegra - These are your words, are they not?

"Quivering and fluttering" does not sound like PSVT to me. There are arrhythmias which can be totally cured by ablation and let you be drug (poison) free.

Who are you, or anybody really, to say what's going on inside a person's chest based on them saying "quivering" or "fluttering?" You said it doesn't sound like PSVT, yet a cardiologist who actually ran tests on this person and interpreted the results says it is. You know more? I sure don't.

Using your broken arm analogy, if someone told you they felt something pop, would you immediately cut open their arm? Or would you maybe run some tests to make sure they broke it before you did all this surgery based on the patient's selection of a descriptive word or two?

All medications do not simply mask symptoms. You know this. And there is no choice anyone makes without some consequence. You eat cheetos, you get fat. You get fat, your chances of a bunch of bad things happening to you go way up.

You consent to an ablation and you risk death on the operating table, plain and simple. It's true of most any surgery, some more than others. Like it or not, it's a fact. Are the risks small? Sure. But are they infinitely larger than taking a little pill? Yep. And like it or not, ablation may not be a permanent cure-all. I'm reading a book right now called Collateral Damage sent to me by the author Dan Walter that is fascinating and also heartbreaking.

Anyway, here's where I stand on this - everyone needs to go to their respective corners. If you or anyone wants extol the virtues of a particular therapy? Go to it. But DO NOT do it at the expense of others. (There are people out there that would rip you for siding with "Big Medical Device," you know?)

So for now I'm going to close this thread. Sorry, Bigmoo - you can always start another. I think this one has just become too caustic to be productive.